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Separation of Church and State

Separation of Church and State

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by: angiekaye Active Indicator LED Icon 16 OP 
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 9:09pm  
We all know what our founding fathers meant when they put this into our constitution. Its been abuse and misused for years now at the hands of atheist to get what they want... well now Our wonderful Mayor wants the same!  She needs to be thrown out of office!  This is against our constitutional rights and rights of free speech! The city of Houston has issued subpoenas demanding a group of pastors turn over any sermons dealing with homosexuality, gender identity or Annise Parker, the city’s first openly lesbian mayor. And those ministers who fail to comply could be held in contempt of court.“The city’s subpoena of sermons and other pastoral communications is both needless and unprecedented,” Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Christina Holcomb said in a statement. “The city council and its attorneys are engaging in an inquisition designed to stifle any critique of its actions.”ADF, a nationally-known law firm specializing in religious liberty cases, is representing five Houston pastors. They filed a motion in Harris County court to stop the subpoenas arguing they are “overbroad, unduly burdensome, harassing, and vexatious.” “Political and social commentary is not a crime,” Holcomb said. “It is protected by the First Amendment.”The subpoenas are just the latest twist in an ongoing saga over the Houston’s new non-discrimination ordinance. The law, among other things, would allow men to use the ladies room and vice versa.  The city council approved the law in June.The Houston Chronicle reported opponents of the ordinance launched a petition drive that generated more than 50,000 signatures – far more than the 17,269 needed to put a referendum on the ballot.However, the city threw out the petition in August over alleged irregularities.After opponents of the bathroom bill filed a lawsuit the city’s attorneys responded by issuing the subpoenas against the pastors.The pastors were not part of the lawsuit. However, they were part of a coalition of some 400 Houston-area churches that opposed the ordinance. The churches represent a number of faith groups – from Southern Baptist to non-denominational.“City council members are supposed to be public servants, not ‘Big Brother’ overlords who will tolerate no dissent or challenge,” said ADF attorney Erik Stanley.  “This is designed to intimidate pastors.”Mayor Parker will not explain why she wants to inspect the sermons. I contacted City Hall for a comment and received a terse reply from the mayor’s director of communications.“We don’t comment on litigation,” said Janice Evans.However, ADF attorney Stanley suspects the mayor wants to publicly shame the ministers. He said he anticipates they will hold up their sermons for public scrutiny. In other words – the city is rummaging for evidence to “out” the pastors as anti-gay bigots.Among those slapped with a subpoena is Steve Riggle, the senior pastor of Grace Community Church. He was ordered to produce all speeches and sermons related to Mayor Annise Parker, homosexuality and gender identity.The mega-church pastor was also ordered to hand over “all communications with members of your congregation” regarding the non-discrimination law.“This is an attempt to chill pastors from speaking to the cultural issues of the day,” Riggle told me. “The mayor would like to silence our voice. She’s a bully.”Rev. Dave Welch, executive director of the Texas Pastor Council, also received a subpoena. He said he will not be intimidated by the mayor.“We’re not afraid of this bully,” he said. “We’re not intimidated at all.”He accused the city of violating the law with the subpoenas and vowed to stand firm in the faith.“We are not going to yield our First Amendment rights,” Welch told me. ‘This is absolutely a complete abuse of authority.”Tony Perkins, the head of the Family Research Council, said pastors around the nation should rally around the Houston ministers.“The state is breaching the wall of separation between church and state,” Perkins told me. ‘Pastors need to step forward and challenge this across the country. I’d like to see literally thousands of pastors after they read this story begin to challenge government authorities – to dare them to come into their churches and demand their sermons.”Perkins called the actions by Houston’s mayor “obscene” and said they “should not be tolerated.”“This is a shot across the bow of the church,” he said.This is the moment I wrote about in my book, “God Less America.” I predicted that the government would one day try to silence American pastors. I warned that under the guise of “tolerance and diversity” elected officials would attempt to deconstruct religious liberty. Sadly, that day arrived sooner than even I expected.Tony Perkins is absolutely right. Now is the time for pastors and people of faith to take a stand.  We must rise up and reject this despicable strong-arm attack on religious liberty. We cannot allow ministers to be intimidated by government thugs.The pastors I spoke to tell me they will not comply with the subpoena – putting them at risk for a “fine or confinement, or both.”Heaven forbid that should happen. But if it does, Christians across America should be willing to descend en masse upon Houston and join these brave men of God behind bars.Pastor Welch compared the culture war skirmish to the 1836 Battle of San Jacinto, fought in present-day Harris County, Texas. It was a decisive battle of the Texas Revolution.“This is the San Jacinto moment for traditional family,” Welch told me. “This is the place where we stop the LGBT assault on the freedom to practice our faith.”We can no longer remain silent. We must stand together - because one day – the government might come for your pastor. 4951
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FoFa Active Indicator LED Icon 17
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 9:18pm  
Actually, that right there is what separation of church and state is suppose to be.Even if that saying came much later, the government is suppose to stay out of religion. 4951
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mm4731 Active Indicator LED Icon 13
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 9:18pm  
[ Removed By Request. ] 4951
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angiekaye Active Indicator LED Icon 16 OP 
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 9:47pm  
Actually, that right there is what separation of church and state is suppose to be.Even if that saying came much later, the government is suppose to stay out of religion.
 
@FoFa: exactly my point. Government isn't supposed to tell us what we are to believe or disbelieve.  They were supposed to keep religion and politics separate.  And it was established to keep them from all of us falling under ONE religion as other countries.  This is stepping on our freedom of speech,and our freedom of religion 
It was never the point to keep religious statues or anything like out of government buildings as atheist use it today.   but this all stems back to the "bathroom ordinance" the ministers that fought it are the ones that she is requesting their sermons from.  if they dont comply they can and will be held in contempt of courts.  This is why they wanted this ordinance removed from vote! 4951
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ProblemAgain Active Indicator LED Icon 10
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 9:58pm  
Actually, that right there is what separation of church and state is suppose to be.Even if that saying came much later, the government is suppose to stay out of religion.
 
@FoFa: and to keep their tax exempt religious status, churches are supposed to stay out of promoting one side or the other in politics, and that is very likely why the quest for the sermons to ascertain whther or not the ministers and the churches have overstepped their bounds. both ends of the spectrum have to follow the rules, not just one.
4951
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ProblemAgain Active Indicator LED Icon 10
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:11pm  

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>> Actually, that right there is what separation of church and state is suppose to be.Even if that saying came much later, the government is suppose to stay out of religion.
 
@FoFa: exactly my point. Government isn't supposed to tell us what we are to believe or disbelieve.  They were supposed to keep religion and politics separate.  And it was established to keep them from all of us falling under ONE religion as other countries.  This is stepping on our freedom of speech,and our freedom of religion 
It was never the point to keep religious statues or anything like out of government buildings as atheist use it today.   but this all stems back to the "bathroom ordinance" the ministers that fought it are the ones that she is requesting their sermons from.  if they dont comply they can and will be held in contempt of courts.  This is why they wanted this ordinance removed from vote!
 
@angiekaye: if the churches and the ministers were advocating for or against a candidate, that is illegal according to the tax status. if the churches or the ministers were advocating positions and/or telling parishioners to vote a certain way, that isn't legal according to the 501 status. that oversteps the boundaries and it then becomes a defacto POLITICAL organization.  and you wouldn't like it for a muslim mosque or a buddhist temple, why should anyone like special status without following the rules for any other church?
4951
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BooBear Active Indicator LED Icon 16
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:12pm  

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>> Actually, that right there is what separation of church and state is suppose to be.Even if that saying came much later, the government is suppose to stay out of religion.
 
@FoFa: and to keep their tax exempt religious status, churches are supposed to stay out of promoting one side or the other in politics, and that is very likely why the quest for the sermons to ascertain whther or not the ministers and the churches have overstepped their bounds. both ends of the spectrum have to follow the rules, not just one.
 
@ProblemAgain: its not against the law to be a bigot. I can see them being able to subpoena sermans about specifically mayor parker because that is stepping across that line but their views on homosexuality, while backwards, are perfectly within their rights.
 
4951
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shodan66 Active Indicator LED Icon 15
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:23pm  
It was never the point to keep religious statues or anything like out of government buildings as atheist use it today.
 
@angiekaye: James Madison would disagree with you.  As would George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams.  They were all every bit as much concerned with the church controlling the government as they were with the government controlling the church.  “Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion and Government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history.”~Founding Father James Madison; Monopolies, Perpetuities, Corporations, EcclesiasticalEndowments
In the 1600's the New England Puritans were intent on making their new world a Christian nation and said as much.  A century and a half later, the Founding Fathers absolutely and purposely guided away from that.  They sort of make the jump in primary school from pilgrim to the Revolutionary War like it all happened quickly.  It's like saying that the 1860's are relevant today.  Christians have been trying to rewrite history since the mid-50's when FDR added "In God We Trust" to money (1957) and "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance (1954) in an attempt to solidify the nation against the godless communists.  The fact remains that you retain the right to practice any religion, but we are not a Christian nation. 4951
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BooBear Active Indicator LED Icon 16
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:28pm  
@angiekaye our nation was colonized by those seeking religious freedoms, America as we know it was created over money. 4951
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ProblemAgain Active Indicator LED Icon 10
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:29pm  
they have the right to their own views. it isn't illegal to be a bigot. they can side with the westboro baptist church as long as they stay on the right side of the law. and as long as they have stayed on the right side of the law and haven't slandered the proponents of the law they are opposing, then they don't have anything to concern themselves about. this is more of the" wah wah a war on christians stuff... " if they can't publically stand behind what they said, they are a pretty pathetic bunch at best. However,
ADF attorney Stanley suspects the mayor wants to publicly shame the
ministers. He said he anticipates they will hold up their sermons for
public scrutiny. In other words – the city is rummaging for evidence to
“out” the pastors as anti-gay bigots.Among
those slapped with a subpoena is Steve Riggle, the senior pastor of
Grace Community Church. He was ordered to produce all speeches and
sermons related to Mayor Annise Parker, homosexuality and gender
identity.The
mega-church pastor was also ordered to hand over “all communications
with members of your congregation” regarding the non-discrimination law.“This
is an attempt to chill pastors from speaking to the cultural issues of
the day,” Riggle told me. “The mayor would like to silence our voice.
She’s a bully.”Rev.
Dave Welch, executive director of the Texas Pastor Council, also
received a subpoena. He said he will not be intimidated by the mayor.“We’re not afraid of this bully,” he said. “We’re not intimidated at all.doesn't that sound like "oh they are going to make us stand up for what we said?" 4951
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ProblemAgain Active Indicator LED Icon 10
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:31pm  
and on a related note....
Huckabee Threatens To Leave GOP Over Gay Marriage, Abortion
 

 





October 9, 2014 2:48 PM






 



Huckabee Threatens To Leave GOP Over Gay Marriage, AbortionFormer
Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee says he will leave the GOP if Republicans
abandon their ardent opposition to gay marriage and abortion.
Appearing on the American Family
Association’s radio show this week, Huckabee was discussing gay
marriage and said: “If the Republicans want to lose guys like me — and a
whole bunch of still God-fearing Bible-believing people — go ahead and
just abdicate on this issue, and why you’re at it, go ahead and say
abortion doesn’t matter, either.”
“Because at that point, you lose
me,” Huckabee said. “I’m gone. I’ll become an independent. I’ll start
finding people that have guts to stand. I’m tired of this.”
His comments follow the Supreme
Court this week opting not to take up gay marriage, effectively clearing
the way for several states to start issuing same-sex marriage licenses.
“I am utterly exasperated with
Republicans and the so-called leadership of the Republicans who have
abdicated on this issue when, if they continue this direction they
guarantee they’re gonna lose every election in the future,” Huckabee
said. “Guarantee it.”
“And I don’t understand why they
want to lose,” he continued. “Because a lot of Republicans,
particularly in the establishment and those who live on either the left
coast or those who live up in the bubbles of New York and Washington,
are convinced that if we don’t capitulate on the same sex marriage issue
and if we don’t raise the white flag of surrender, and just the accept
it as inevitable, we’ll be losers.”
“I tell you,” Huckabee said. “It’s the absolute opposite of that.” 4951
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shodan66 Active Indicator LED Icon 15
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:39pm  
our nation was colonized by those seeking religious freedoms
 
@BooBear: Regardless of the fact that there was already an entire civilization on this continent.  Again, painted by revisionist history as a bunch of savages running around in loin clothes when, in fact, there were very complex cities as well as defined groups of tribal peoples that interacted with each other in trade and every day life.  It's documented that the Vikings had been visiting on and off since at least the 500's but they had no desire to own the world like the Europeans.  With the Europeans came the religious dogma that persecuted anyone not like them as well as diseases that spread a plague across the continent.
They didn't really want religious freedom.  That would indicate that you could practice religion your way and they could practice it their's.  In reality, and it's well documented with little things like the witch trials and such, they just wanted everyone to practice it their way.  Thankfully, by the time we became a nation more enlightened heads prevailed.  4951
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ProblemAgain Active Indicator LED Icon 10
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:43pm  
it depends on which colony. in some colonies, in order to do business, hold office or vote you had to be a member of whatever church was the favored church. that is one reason why rhode island was founded
Roger Williams: Father of Religious Freedom in America

 






Roger Williams came to the New World in 1631 with much the same hopes as the first Pilgrim Separatists.
His heart’s desire was to see a pure church raised up, with no ties to
the Church of England and its corruption, compromise, and oppression.
Ironically that desire is what led to his banishment from the
Massachusetts Bay Colony at the end of 1635. His outspoken zeal for
“soul liberty” proved too radical for the Puritan leaders of the colony,
who had brought with them the same spirit of religious intolerance from
which they had fled.
 
Slipping away just before his arrest, Roger Williams fled into the
wilderness and found refuge among the Indians. In later writings,
Williams recalls how he was “denied the common air to breathe... and
almost without mercy and human compassion, exposed to winter miseries
in a howling wilderness [for fourteen weeks] not knowing what bread or bed did mean .”
During this time, whatever shelter he found was in the dingy, smoky
lodges of the Indians. Their hospitality to him in his time of need was
something he sought to repay with kindness all the rest of his life.
 
In early 1636, Williams purchased land from the Indians and with a few friends founded a settlement they called Providence Plantations ,
which soon became a refuge for those “distressed of conscience.”
Williams eventually obtained a royal charter for the colony, which later
became the State of Rhode Island, based on this mandate:
 
No person within the said colony, at any time hereafter, shall be
anywise molested, punished, disquieted, or called in question for any
differences in opinion in matters of religion ... but that all persons
may ... enjoy their own judgments and consciences in matters of
religious concernments.
 
What is most significant about the royal charter is that it
acknowledges at the foundation of Rhode Island’s government two
important principles: republicanism (democratic governments made up of representatives elected by its citizens) and religious liberty .
These principles characterize our American government and are later
expressed in both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
of the United States.
 
Neither republicanism nor religious liberty can be found in any of the
charters of the other colonies in which the church and state were
united. It is therefore easy to determine the original source of those
principles which have protected our religious freedom and made America a
refuge for the oppressed of every land. The nation’s debt to Roger
Williams is a debt that can never be canceled. 4951
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fcabanski Active Indicator LED Icon 16
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:48pm  
The Founding Fathers didn't want a government religion, or a religion running the federal government.  The purpose of the establishment clause was to stop the federal government from imposing religion.  Thomas Jefferson said he was fine with religious state governments, BTW.Liberals want separation of church and state, no religion in the public square and government not discussing religion, unless they're imposing rules on religions.  As the OP showed, liberals are fine with attacking religion.Religion is not God.  The Founding Fathers understood that.  But liberals want to replace God with government. 4951
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BooBear Active Indicator LED Icon 16
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:48pm  

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>> our nation was colonized by those seeking religious freedoms
 
@BooBear: Regardless of the fact that there was already an entire civilization on this continent.  Again, painted by revisionist history as a bunch of savages running around in loin clothes when, in fact, there were very complex cities as well as defined groups of tribal peoples that interacted with each other in trade and every day life.  It's documented that the Vikings had been visiting on and off since at least the 500's but they had no desire to own the world like the Europeans.  With the Europeans came the religious dogma that persecuted anyone not like them as well as diseases that spread a plague across the continent.
They didn't really want religious freedom.  That would indicate that you could practice religion your way and they could practice it their's.  In reality, and it's well documented with little things like the witch trials and such, they just wanted everyone to practice it their way.  Thankfully, by the time we became a nation more enlightened heads prevailed. 
 
@shodan66: people seem to believe that the puritan that came and first lived were the ones writing our Constitution. Puritans were a horrible group of people and we are still caught in the stranglehold they placed on our nation, but at the same time, even the most devout by today's standards, would fall well short of Puritan yardsticks.
 
4951
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angiekaye Active Indicator LED Icon 16 OP 
~ 9 years ago   Oct 14, '14 10:48pm  
But why is the war against christians?  Why now do we finally see Christians standing up for their beliefs and its becoming more wide spread now. You see news everyday of school sporting teams defying all against and praying before and after games.  You have schools having "meet at the pole" prayers before and after schools.  We have a church right here in Atascocita that meets at a school.We as christians have just as much rights as those against christians.  If all are calling for equal rights they can't have it only "their' ways. 4951
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